Primates, dual shrines and morality

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Jamie Mac
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Re: Primates, dual shrines and morality

Post by Jamie Mac » 30 Sep 2018, 08:39

Maintaining normality is comfortable.

If the churches are satisfied with their leaders' decisions and do not choose to raise a matter of confidence then that is one thing. It is still possible to move forward from there.

I would suggest a year of contrition and, as the Primate of Longstor has done, a statement of pilgrimage and intent to correct the problem by deconsecrating the incorrect shrine. Or something similar for those leaders unable to readily travel to Hadsfield.
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Re: Primates, dual shrines and morality

Post by PR Longstor » 30 Sep 2018, 20:52

Thank you Father Harry,

I will not waste this chance that has been given to me and I will do all that I can to put things right.

On the note of the Dual Shrine in Hadsfield, I have been requested by the acting primate of Vleybor to stay my hand.

I have also separately been contacted by a law official informing me that although it is a shrine to Githas, by deconsecrating the Vleyborian shrine simultaneously, it could be perceived as Heresy for the removal of the light god portion.

I will talk with Acting Primate Eldoran and discuss with law officials ASAP to agree the best course.

In faith,
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Re: Primates, dual shrines and morality

Post by mattdodds » 01 Oct 2018, 19:10

I do not often visit the public forums, however I feel very strongly about this matter. The leaders of our churches were found guilty of heresy in a fair trial, they were then offered a deal to reduce their punishment.
The only action which would serve to gain any respect in my eyes would be for the leaders who made such a severe error of judgement to accept that they are unfit to lead their brothers and sisters in faith and step down. They could then, through penance and good works, seek to regain the confidence of the people, having accepted responsibility for their actions. Any attempt to contest their culpability is an attempt to claim that they were correct in supporting a heretic.
I for one feel that even a blasphemer has no place at the head of a church.
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Re: Primates, dual shrines and morality

Post by PR Longstor » 01 Oct 2018, 22:11

The only reason I fight for my post is because I still believe the judgement was wrong.

It would be abhorrent to me to abandon a friend who made a big mistake after literal years of saving lives and doing unparalleled good work for his church. He did something horrible, stupid and damaging to his faith, but unless the gods saw fit to excommunicate him, then I could see my way to still affording him compassion and understanding where possible.

To clarify:

I NEVER condoned Stephans actions.
I WAS NOT aware of his plan to create a dual shrine.
I WAS NOT a party to any meetings with heretics in the camp.
I WAS NOT present when the shrine was consecrated.
I DID express my desire to offer him the compassion befitting a fundamentally good and faithful.
I DID push to have Stephan arrested at the council meeting and was told emphatically "NO!" By the High-primate and the Mayor. The two single most important people in the adventuring community!

I WHOLEHEARTELY do not believe that by offering High-Father Stephan a hand on the shoulder as he faced the punishment for the crime he committed could possibly be considered "Intentionally damaging the worship of the 7" and therefore totally refute the idea I am, or ever have been, guilty of the crime of heresy.

I have taken the lesser charge of blasphemy because it fits. It was not a law when the meeting took place, by the choice I was offered boiled down to "Accept your punishment for heresy or take a charge of blasphemy."

Accepting the 'lesser' charge is not, and has never been about me weaseling to keep my mitts on the primatesy, it has been about taking the rightful flak for the unforeseen damage caused by my actions that evening. Damage that was not foreseen by 6 primates, a defender of faith, the mayor or the acting knight commander. But I will never accept that what I did that weekend was heresy, never.

In faith,
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Re: Primates, dual shrines and morality

Post by ShaunL » 02 Oct 2018, 07:39

Nobody can tell Lowlife who next primate wud be. Lowlife rather see man he know to be gud man trying to put right a mistake, dan a stranger he never herd of try to lead da pack dat he never even bovva speaking too before becoming leada.
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Re: Primates, dual shrines and morality

Post by graham t » 02 Oct 2018, 07:58

However, everyone is entitled to an opinion, Father Lowlife, and they are entitled to share it here if they so choose. Whatever the outcome, I am hopeful that we will not see a schism in the Church over this.
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Re: Primates, dual shrines and morality

Post by JohariNew » 02 Oct 2018, 13:24

I believe Colin to be the right person to lead our church. I have known him for sometime now, at one time I disliked him intensely. But he has grown as a man and in faith and there is no one I would rather serve with or die beside than my friend Primate Colin Fletcher
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Re: Primates, dual shrines and morality

Post by paul_austin » 02 Oct 2018, 18:11

I'm not much of a theologian but if the gods teach us anything it's that should we err from the path then it is on us to seek absolution.
We learn that mistakes are a part of life and how you seek to atone for them is what truly defines you.

I would rather see the Primates found guilty take their error and work to rectify it than be swept into the history books.
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Re: Primates, dual shrines and morality

Post by Nickyloolaa » 03 Oct 2018, 09:01

paul_austin wrote:
02 Oct 2018, 18:11

I would rather see the Primates found guilty take their error and work to rectify it than be swept into the history books.
They're not being killed, at worst they are being relieved of their power in order to focus more fully on atoning for their misdemeanour in the eyes of their church and the general populace. that's hardly being swept into the history books, if anything as the recipients of the first judgements of blasphemy as a country wide law, and leaders of their churches at that, they will be highly notable in the history books and in life in general. Everyone will know them now, and they have a duty to use that to repair damage done.
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Re: Primates, dual shrines and morality

Post by Phil R » 03 Oct 2018, 16:24

Clearly I am not a theologian, but I am of noble birth and care deeply about reputation and how failure to perform ones duty reflects on those that look at them for excellence.

If I were to bring dishonour to my family or my knightly order I would be expected to redeem myself without the aid of my retainers or order before being accepted back into the ranks or to the position of trust and respect that I had held previous to the act if dishonour.

This would be in addition to any other legal ramifications that would occur if the act of dishonour was one of criminality.

My priority would be the duty to regain my honour and to do so in a manner that would regain the respect of my family and fellow knights. Without doing that I would not know that I had regained the trust of my peers or repaired the damage to my reputation. Just my family or order telling me that they still trusted me, or that the action I took was not in their eyes dishonourable would not take away my dishonour or allow me to dismiss it. Only the act of redemption would allow me to put the incident behind me.

As a noble and a knight I hold myself to a high standard and would not expect others to be so exacting, however those that hold high office should be.

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