Mortal & divine Law

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PR Longstor
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Re: Mortal & divine Law

Post by PR Longstor » 28 Sep 2018, 23:37

Mr Meetshack,

It must be said you have a very keen interest in the law and legality, I'm not sure what you do, but perhaps you should pursue a career in the law guilds. I feel as though you absolutely could make a case for what you're saying, but I think if people, especially adventurers, stopped whipping up a frenzy and highlighting flaw after flaw, then we could get back to the job of facilitating worship and helping our fellows enjoy their time.
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Re: Mortal & divine Law

Post by Mike P BL8 » 29 Sep 2018, 08:14

Primate Fletcher I have a keen interest in may things, fine foods, good company, moral rights and keen debate.

My interest in law has come about due to the actions or inaction of the Primates when they allowed or actively took part in actions which resulted in the law of the land accusing them of Blasphemy and damaging the churches reputation.

In short you asked for this, now get on with discussing how you are going to make it better rather than making backhanded compliments
Silas Greenback

Dont talk, Act
Dont Say, Show
Dont Promise, Prove

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Re: Mortal & divine Law

Post by mattdodds » 01 Oct 2018, 21:42

To look at this another way, if the actions of a Primate bring his church into disrepute, thus undermining the worship of the Seven anyone supporting this hypothetical primate would also be undermining said worship.
To get back to the original query, the gods give us a framework by which we strive to live according to their ethos. Strictures are rules set by the mortal church, Laws are the framework by which mortal society is governed. The gods allow us free will that we can choose how we wish to live and express their displeasure directly when we err. If the law requires me to act against the Will of Longstor, putting me at risk of sin, I would act according to the Will of Longstor, as I interpret it, trusting to my faith as a defence when accused before the court. If the conflict was between law and stricture I would obey the law and bring the conflict to the notice of the Defender, Primate and Undercouncil of my church.
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Re: Mortal & divine Law

Post by PR Longstor » 01 Oct 2018, 22:49

mattdodds wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 21:42
If the law requires me to act against the Will of Longstor, putting me at risk of sin, I would act according to the Will of Longstor, as I interpret it, trusting to my faith as a defence when accused before the court.
But our faith is not a valid defence in a court of law. Knowing this would you still break the law to uphold the ethos of our church?

In faith,
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Re: Mortal & divine Law

Post by mattdodds » 01 Oct 2018, 22:58

PR Longstor wrote:
mattdodds wrote:
01 Oct 2018, 21:42
If the law requires me to act against the Will of Longstor, putting me at risk of sin, I would act according to the Will of Longstor, as I interpret it, trusting to my faith as a defence when accused before the court.
But our faith is not a valid defence in a court of law. Knowing this would you still break the law to uphold the ethos of our church?

In faith,
If I were to find a peasant wantonly destroying a tree and was unable to persuade him to stop I would have a choice between using force to stop him or being in sin. I would stop him with the minimum force possible and hope that when in court the judge would take the fact that I could not allow him to continue into consideration. I would not deny my guilt, merely ask that my faith be considered for mitigation.

I hope that is clearer.
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Re: Mortal & divine Law

Post by PR Longstor » 01 Oct 2018, 23:09

So yes then, you'd break the law is necessary to adhere to your faith. I would to, no doubt. so I ask you this then, in your hypothetical situation:

While they obviously would in no way support your illegal actions, would you expect your friends to at least understand what you did and why you did it?

Would it be a huge stretch of the imagination that from that understanding they could, even knowing and accepting your guilt, wish to offer you comfort and support while you faced punishment for your actions?

In faith,
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Re: Mortal & divine Law

Post by mattdodds » 02 Oct 2018, 07:24

I would hope my friends would support me, though I would not expect them to break the law in a misguided attempt to help.

Let me be very clear. Stephan was not in any way bound by his faith to create the shrine. He could have stayed both within his Ladies ethos and the law while meeting with the heretic primate.
I was not present at the meeting of the council of light which followed but my understanding is that it was agreed to stand behind Stephan, opposing charges of heresy for his actions.
The council was then charged with heresy for recklessly undermining the worship of the Seven and found guilty at the resulting trials.
From the perspective of the people of Ithron, this has been perceived as an attempt to close ranks and protect one of our own from his just punishment. This perception has been further compounded by the Archduke's response to the appeals which might be construed as a similar action.

The main difference here is one of magnitude and responsibility. I said I would accept responsibility for my actions and plead guilty, I am also just a local priest with no pretentions to lead. Those who would stand at the high table and lead their brothers and sisters must be held to higher standards as the consequences of their actions are much more significant. The ordinary folk of Ithron felt it necessary to petition the Undercouncil for action.

It is my opinion that opposing the process of law as it was enacted and fighting to retain the position of Primate can only cause further reputational harm to the churches. It is time for introspection and soul searching not impassioned speeches and bluster.

All I ask is that the leaders of our churches ask themselves what would be best for the entire church, removal of the thorn which has pierced our foot and causes us pain or driving the thorn deeper into the wound and denying the pain.
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Re: Mortal & divine Law

Post by ShaunL » 02 Oct 2018, 07:35

Lowlife not consider Mista Primate Fletcher to be a thorn.

Lowlife consider him good man who had to make tuff choice.

Lowlife remind you dat Mista Primate Fletcher wanted Mista Stephan put on public trial strait away but was told no by rest of council of light. He cud have defied dem publiclee but It very hard for one man to go against da will of six other churches.

Nobody can tell Lowlife who next primate wud be. Lowlife rather see man he know to be gud man trying to put right a mistake, dan a stranger he never herd of try to lead da pack dat he never even bovva speaking too before becoming leada.
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Re: Mortal & divine Law

Post by mattdodds » 02 Oct 2018, 19:14

I have never said that High Father Fletcher is anything but a good man who made a grievous error of judgement. He had the opportunity to stand apart from the council, to show strength in the face of adversity and chose to follow the herd.

Our church does not consist only of its adventuring members and it is vital that we look for the path which all can follow. The peoples of Ithron are beginning to see adventurers as a class apart which see themselves as above the law. The quickest way to resolve this would be for those who are at the centre of the issue to remove themselves from power and seek to mend the rifts humbly.

I do not know who would lead us in this situation, I do not seek the honour as I believe I am not human. Whoever received the burden would need all our support, including High Father Fletcher, to rectify the situation.
High Father Forley Culpeper
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Re: Mortal & divine Law

Post by paul_austin » 03 Oct 2018, 00:17

mattdodds wrote:
02 Oct 2018, 07:24
From the perspective of the people of Ithron, this has been perceived as an attempt to close ranks and protect one of our own from his just punishment.
Who have they closed ranks to protect?
High Father Stephen is a branded heretic doing several years community service because he is the one who committed a heretical act and he has and will continue to face punishment for it.
Sidney Blanchard
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